Bombshell Monsanto book. Jeffrey interviews author - Episode 82

Listen to the Podcast:

In this week's episode...

There’s a newly released, can’t-put-it-down thriller that you will want to put on your book list. And to encourage you, Jeffrey Smith has bundled the book with 3 additional DVDs that expose Monsanto’s dark dealings.

We think you will enjoy Carey Gillam’s thrilling book, The Monsanto Papers.

https://seedsofdeception.com/store/

The Institute for Responsible Technology is working to protect you & the World from GMOs (and while we’re at it, Roundup®...)  To find out exactly how we do this and to subscribe to our newsletter visit https://www.responsibletechnology.org/
Notes for this week's Podcast
This week's Transcript

The following are important links Jeffrey talks about in the video above:

Transcription: Jeffrey interviews author Carey Gillam 3/26/21

This transcript has been edited slightly for clarity 

Jeffrey Smith (00:05):

Hi, everyone. This is Jeffrey Smith, Institute for Responsible Technology, and I am so excited to introduce you to the book and the author--the book, The Monsanto Papers, the author, sitting next to me, Carey Gillam. Welcome Carey.

Carey Gillam (00:42):

Hello, thanks for having me.

Jeffrey Smith (00:44):

Oh, you have done an amazing job turning one of the most dramatic and pivotal moments in the anti-Monsanto, you know, “nail’em-to-the-wall” saga that I've been part of for 25 years. You have done an amazing job on The Monsanto Papers and the Monsanto trial, writing a book that people can't put down. While they're absorbing a Grisham-like novel, they're getting the truth about Monsanto that people like me have been trying to get out for years. Thank you for writing the book.

Carey Gillam (01:25):

Thank you. Thanks for those kind words. I am intending and hoping that the book will have a wide audience and appeal to general readers, people who maybe don’t have a taste for very heavy science books. This one is designed to be a legal thriller, designed to take you through kind of a wild ride behind the scenes of a major court case.

Jeffrey Smith (01:47):

I would like to suggest for people who would like to buy the book--and I strongly recommend that you buy the book--go to the link on the page here. We rarely take on books to sell at this point, but we bought some books to make available to you and we're bundling it with DVDs too, so you'll see that there are three DVDs about Monsanto as an encouragement to have you read the book because we really want you to read the book. Before we go into the details of the book (and we're going to go into some pretty shocking stuff) I would like to suggest that you purchase the book for a number of reasons:

One, you get to read it yourself,

Two, you get to pass it around

Three, you get to support authors who take the time to expose Monsanto.

Jeffrey Smith (02:44):

And that's what Carey has done--investing years to get this information, and lots and lots of months writing it. Also, if you get the DVD you can pass that around.  It's kind of like supporting the cause and getting a book out at the same time. This is the book that you'll get: Monsanto Papers. There, I've done my big pitch and now let's do the interview.

Carey, can you set us up here, because the whole book sets us up. The whole book is a story, and I'll let you lead us in.

Carey Gillam (03:21):

Sure. The book is the story of one man, Lee Johnson--the story of his life working as a school groundskeeper, a father to two young boys, and a married man living a middle income lifestyle. Lee was really loving his job. He had a hard time growing up. He grew up without his own father really in his life, and often with an absent mother. He struggled in school, and he really had found himself, though, and felt a real degree of success by the time he was in his forties. This school groundskeeper job required him to get dirty, he would say, trapping rodents and spraying pesticides--in particular spraying Monsanto's Roundup and Ranger Pro herbicides around school grounds. He always took great care to wear protective gear and really try to minimize his exposure, but he didn't worry too much because he knew that he had always been told that these products from Monsanto were so safe and you really didn't have to worry about it.

Carey Gillam (04:30):

You follow him through a day at work where he has this really sort of unusual incident, where a tank sprayer breaks off--the hose breaks off and there's a large amount of this pesticide that sprays out into the air. He has to try to sort of jump on the tank and close it off and clean up the mess, and he gets this very large exposure to these herbicides that are Roundup and Ranger Pro. Not too long after that he starts to find these odd things happening on his skin and over time it develops into cancer. He continues spraying. He tries to call Monsanto to say, Hey, should I be worried about this? Should I stop doing my job? Monsanto never really responds to him, doesn't give him any information.

Carey Gillam (05:22):

He keeps spraying and eventually his cancer just spreads like wildfire across his body and he's told eventually that he has about 18 months left to live. You follow that story and then his struggle--not only to fight cancer, but his struggle to hold accountable the company that he blames for his cancer, which is Monsanto. You meet his attorneys and all the ups and downs and backroom sort of strategizing that goes on, and trying to take Monsanto to court for the first time over these allegations that Roundup causes cancer. Really, as I was reporting it I knew I had to write a book about it because of the things that went on behind the scenes, the twists and the turns, the crazy plot--things that happen.  I kept thinking, it has to be a movie but I can't make a movie, but I can write a book, so, that's what I did. I do hope that people enjoy it, learn something along the way, but also just enjoy the story.

Jeffrey Smith (06:23):

There are so many ways into this. First of all, I have to say that the trial was a bombshell. It was enormous. It was like, we've been working so hard to try and alert the world to the dangers of Roundup, and we can't get it through the congressional side. We can't get it through the executive branch-- but the legal side turns out to be the hole-in-one. When the jury awarded Lee Johnson…why don't you just say how much? I want to say it, I just want to say it, but go ahead.

Carey Gillam (07:01):

He was awarded $289 million in a unanimous jury verdict and $250 million was in punitive damages because the jury was so outraged by what they saw as evidence of misconduct on Monsanto's part. It wasn't only the scientific evidence and the research showing a cancer connection between Roundup, glyphosate-based herbicides and non-Hodgkin lymphoma, but it was decades of deceptive tactics by this company to hide those risks, and to actively pressure and influence regulators so that they would not have to warn consumers likely about the risk of this product. The jurors were outraged.

Jeffrey Smith (07:46):

This to me was an extraordinary opportunity to open the real life of Monsanto--what we have been seeing through little cracks in the doors, because of a very dramatic choice made by Brent Wisner to make documents available to the public. He told me that he was thinking he was gonna lose his legal license when he had to face the judge and the wrath of the judge. I mean, it is intense, some of these scenes that actually gave absolute raw evidence, unmistakable evidence, of people knowing the truth, lying about it, reversing their scientific…I mean really bad actors. This is one of the aspects of your book that I love. I like the story because first of all Lee is an amazing man. You spent hours and hours and hours with him.

Jeffrey Smith (08:46):

I only had dinner with him and spent some time in the courtroom. He is such a lovable, soft, wonderful human being, and that comes across in your writing. You’re loving this person and now you're outraged at what Monsanto is doing to him…and then you get to watch what happens to Monsanto as the information gets out. Brilliant! Pick up what you would say is one of the most shocking or egregious actions of Monsanto that was brought out in the Monsanto papers, the documents that were made public because of the lawsuit.

Carey Gillam (09:26):

There were really so many. I think what shocked the jury—you know, I talked to jury members as well, and you heard it from the judge as well, actually multiple judges who’ve been involved in this litigation now--is the evidence of the ghost writing of the research. This is part of the scene that you talk about when Brent Wisner is called up on the carpet by the judge, because he has released these papers, these documents, and Monsanto had tried to prevent that release. Monsanto had tried to keep these documents sealed, and the judge is saying to Monsanto's attorneys, How can you say that these documents about ghost writing are not relevant to this case, that they should stay sealed? You're talking about ghost writing research about the cancer evidence tied to your products and you're saying that it shouldn't be a part of the case.

Carey Gillam (10:20):

You're crazy. And the judge is really taking Monsanto to task. All of that is shown in the book. People do really find that part of the book, I guess, the most or one of the most exciting or interesting parts, because you're able to see how Brent (Wisner) and the other lawyers are trying to unseal these documents and trying to make them public because they feel like the public has the right to know the dangers that they're facing. Brent in particular did not want the world to have to wait for a trial. He said, People are using these products every single day. They deserve to know today. The regulators should know and policymakers should know. That's why he pushed so hard for these documents to be released.

Carey Gillam (11:10):

But what he had to go through--the hoops, you know he basically really had to lay a trap, if you would to, and hope that Monsanto attorneys would trip their way into this trap, and then he would be able to release the documents. It was a very dramatic turning point in the case. You know, Brent Wisner and some of the other attorneys really did put their reputation--and career, if you will--on the line to do this. That was a very important part of the book and you know, at 12:01 A.M. just after midnight, when these documents were released, and they did change the course of history as well as of the case.

Jeffrey Smith (11:51):

Oh, no doubt about it. I was in the green room with Brent, going to The Doctors TV show. We did a whole hour on glyphosate and the trial, and he told me the story. It was really gutsy, this guy. The thing is, I didn't know him at all. Then he was on the show with me and they put on the screen--on Skype--an epidemiologist who was trying to soft pedal. Brent was not to be intimidated. He just said, You're wrong. And he just explained the science to the scientist and blew away his objections or his concerns. He was so confident and so powerful. It was as if nature organized for this man to be the person up to take down Monsanto. It seemed like that from some of the circumstances that occurred, because he wasn't originally supposed to try.

Carey Gillam (12:55):

Right, exactly. I mean, that's one of the most dramatic parts I think, too. Brent was there, as the Baum Hedlund law firm in Los Angeles was not the firm representing Lee Johnson. Lee Johnson was represented by the Miller firm out of Virginia, and had been from the outset. But without giving away too much of the plot twist in the book, shortly before trial--they like to say on the eve of trial, just a couple of weeks out--Mike Miller, the lead founding attorney who was going to be the lead trial attorney in Lee's trial, suffered a near fatal accident, just a crazy accident that put him in the hospital and almost killed him. Certainly he could not then try the case. And then a backup attorney--he'd been working with Lee for the Miller firm--suffered his own fateful event that knocked him out of the running of leading the case. That's when the Miller firm brought in Brent Wisner from Baum Hedlund and asked him to partner with one of their lawyers, Dave Dickins, to really handle this case. So Brent came in at the last minute, and he was very instrumental in winning the day for sure, really.

Jeffrey Smith (14:08):

I've interviewed Brent for hours and his stories were so rich. Whenever I went to his office or whenever I went to the courtroom, you were always there. You were just embedded in the team because you were reporting out, and at some point they knew you were writing a book and you had incredible access to the details. I just got like a little bit of an overview and was awed at the drama, awed at the end. There are stand up and shout moments throughout this whole saga of how we overcame their obstacles, and they kept trying, and we overcame, and then the final jury award. And then there's more. We can even report on what happened last week in terms of this, which we will in just a moment.

Jeffrey Smith (15:02):

I was always so excited to see that you were going deeper and deeper. I was looking forward to this book for a long time, ‘cause I was watching you in the back room working on it. Before I had the interview or after I had the interview, there you were, compiling data. You had 80,000 court documents to sift through and you did an amazing job to pick the ones that kept us on the edge of our seat and kept us informed.

Carey Gillam (15:36):

Thank you. I did do a deep dive here, and I spent a lot of time and traveled around the United States and went to different meetings so that I was there--the fly on the wall, so to speak--when the lawyers were getting together and strategizing or meeting with other firms. I relied very heavily on transcripts and documents. I spent time, as you said, with Lee Johnson, quite a lot of time with Lee and his wife, his family, and in his home. I talked with the jurors I’ve been covering—obviously, Jeff, you and I have known each other 20 some years, covering Roundup and glyphosate and Monsanto since [the]1990s…so when the litigation began, when I very first met Brent Wisner in early 2016, I knew a lot more than Brent did about glyphosate.

Carey Gillam (16:27):

I'm not even sure he pronounced it correctly back then…

Jeff: [laughing] No, that’s all right!

Carey Gillam: …Right, but he's a brilliant mind, as are the other attorneys who were involved, and they got up to speed and were able to pull this case together to hold Monsanto accountable for this. I knew that this story had to be told in a way that could resonate, as I said earlier, with the general population.  It's too important a story. It is bigger than one company and one man suffering from cancer and one chemical, because this is illustrative of what you see time and time again with other companies, and other chemicals, and other people who are suffering from cancers or disease or reproductive harms that we know are associated. Our science, our research--many of our government researchers, independent researchers--show us and have built up the evidence to make it very clear the harm that we're suffering from these environmental contaminants. If we don't get a handle on that and rein that in and hold these companies accountable who are pushing these products, we are facing, or we're giving our children to face, a very dark, unhappy and unhealthy future. This book again is one man, one company, but I'm hoping that it gives a broader message overall.

Jeffrey Smith (17:51):

And what is the latest news that just appeared in relationship to this particular trial?

Carey Gillam (17:58):

Well, to the Johnson case, Bayer--which bought Monsanto in June of 2018 is when they closed right as the Johnson trial was getting underway (which is incredibly unfortunate for Bayer)--they saw their stock value, their market cap drop precipitously when the jury verdict came down on August 10th of 2018. Now it's been two, or two and a half years just last week (or was it earlier this week or last week?)--they said that they would not take the final step and try to appeal their loss to the U S Supreme Court, so Lee's victory is intact. He has been paid. He only got a fraction of the $289 million because appeals courts reduced that amount, but he has been paid. His case is over now.

Jeffrey Smith (18:51):

I wanted to know if he's received the money…like last week.

Carey Gillam (18:57):

No, it’s actually sort of a technicality, I suppose, but they had to go ahead and pay him when they lost the last appeal that had been filed. They could still take it to the Supreme Court, but they had to go ahead and pay him. There was interest that was accruing. They were ordered to pay interest on this timeframe, so they went ahead and paid late. They were throwing in the towel on this case. But there are still two other trials, losses that they are appealing, and they've indicated they might try to take those all the way to the Supreme Court if possible.

Jeffrey Smith (19:33):

Now the juries are getting the details of the outrageous behavior of Monsanto, and they want to punish. The last of the three jury trials was a couple, and their punitive damages were $2 billion. We all knew that the judge would take it down. We all knew that. The last time I saw Lee was the night of that victory, out to dinner. All the attorneys were there, some of the activists were there, and Lee and his wife were there. I was sitting next to the couple that had just been awarded $2.05 billion, and I said, So what's it like? This is surreal. It's surreal. Why would a jury award a couple $2 billion? Because of the outrageous behavior. Because they, like everyone listening, were wanting to take Monsanto to task, but they had the details.

Jeffrey Smith (20:38):

It wasn't just this fuzzy thing, and you have put those details into the book. I have to admit something to you, Carey. When I wrote the book, Seeds of Deception, which is also story-based, then I was the only person writing about the health dangers of GMOs for many years. It was a lot of work to be constantly writing. You're writing for Reuters at the time and interviewing and going deep. Monsanto was trying to intimidate you and you just wouldn't have it. Congratulations! Then when you started really pumping out these articles with US Right to Know and through Guardian and all, I was like, I don't have to do it anymore! There's a better writer out there. She is a better writer. I can just focus on videos, and why not?

Jeffrey Smith (21:26):

Then with this book, it's like, yep, this is the book that's going to do it. It's story-based. That's what happened to my book in 2003--it became the best seller in the world on GMOs because it was story-based. I want your book to be a bestseller, not just a GMO bestseller or Roundup bestseller, but a bestseller. I wanted to do awesomely. This is something I want to invite people to do, is to get the book as gifts. Because, you already know—if you’re listening to this, by now you already know-- you already don't like Monsanto (let's be tactful) but you want to share this information in a way that people would appreciate the book, like one of those legal film thrillers. They'll love the book, but then they'll get onside and they'll not believe the biotech industry or its enforcement wing in Washington, and they’ll be able to read about the relationship between Monsanto and the regulatory agencies.

Is there something you want to shed light on there in terms of the influence?

Carey Gillam (22:31):

Well, sure. That does come out in the book. Obviously I've written about it. People who follow these cases know about that—that a lot of internal documents came out, text messages, emails and communications showing how close Monsanto was with certain officials within the Environmental Protection Agency and different things that they were doing with European regulators. There are examples of the man inside the EPA who was in charge of looking at the cancer question with respect to glyphosate and Roundup. You can see in their internal emails that Monsanto is referring to him as a friend and somebody that they can rely on for the defense of glyphosate. There are really interesting things that happened with him before he left the agency and reportedly got a job working as a consultant for the chemical industry.

Carey Gillam (23:27):

There are emails that show Monsanto being very worried about a different federal agency, part of Health and Human Services, that wanted to do a toxicity review of glyphosate. You see them discussing, We're worried, we're afraid that they're going to be like this international cancer agency and they're going to find a connection between cancer and glyphosate, so we want to shut that down. You see them going to the EPA and asking for help, and the EPA leaping quickly to help them and get that review delayed. All of these emails, the memos and  the revelations that came out in these papers and the trial, are just so alarming because they show a federal agency-- not only the conduct of a company, which you might expect to put profits over public health, but a federal agency like the EPA, whose job it is to protect public health, protect the environment and using our tax dollars--and to see them leaping to help Monsanto, to put a delay and try to block a safety review, a toxicity review—it’s just mind-boggling and it's frustrating.

Carey Gillam (24:42):

And it's something that needs to change, certainly!

Jeffrey Smith (24:46):

I loved how blatant things were and how black and white, how clear the evidence was. My favorite example from the three trials is how they were supposed to test the absorbability of Roundup on human skin. So they took cadaver skin (which is not uncommon) and you put it on the cadaver and then you see how much is absorbed, and it was 10%, which according to the cross-examination by Brent was 3.3 times the allowable level by the EPA. If they had reported what they had found, the Roundup would be illegal. It would not be allowed to be put onto the market. But they did a typical Monsanto thing.  I can tell you a lot of other stories, but we're focusing on this one because I was not aware of this. This came out completely new from the Monsanto papers that when they realized it was absorbed by 10%, they took new cadaver skin. And what did they do?

Carey Gillam (25:52):

Are they like…baked it? Did they freeze it or did they burn it?

Jeffrey Smith (25:54):

First they baked it, and then they froze it.

Carey Gillam (25:57):

They did both, right. I mean, they changed….that was an issue. The dermal absorption rate was a real concern for Monsanto. You saw that come out in the documents as well because of that. That goes back again to sort of the messaging that the company was giving to consumers or groundskeepers like Lee or other people—you know, the advertisement showing people out spraying Roundup in flip-flops and shorts and no gloves or anything. But internally Monsanto was alarmed at the dermal absorption data, and telling its own people in writing to be sure when they applied these products that they wore full protective gear. So it was one message inside and a completely different message to the people using the product.

Jeffrey Smith (26:48):

That became clear at The Doctor's TV, where the first time I was on was not with Brent. It was debating Donna Farmer, who was the chief toxicologist at Monsanto, who was very schooled and had been practicing with their PR people and said, I'm very confident in this molecule, both as a scientist and as a mother about this chemical. She was giving all sorts of confidence, Because of the Monsanto papers coming out I searched under her name and found out that in private she wasn't so confident. I called up the producer and I said, I can show you that Donna Farmer lied on your show two years ago. When they saw it they said, I think we're going to do something. I said, How long do you think we're going to get? She said maybe three or four minutes. They gave an entire episode because the story is so compelling, and that was before the trial happened. You actually waited until the right time. It's like, it was just simply stunning.

Carey Gillam (27:52):

It really was. I think the thing that is frustrating now for a lot of people--and we talk about this in the epilogue of the book, you talk about the Pilliods, the married couple that received $2 billion in an award--both of them were stricken with non-Hodgkin lymphoma. They haven't received any money. They’re elderly people. The wife in particular has really suffered and struggled. They've been very sick. It’s like a lot of other people--it's great to be told you won and you're going to get a lot of money, but it really doesn't change their lives. It doesn't get rid of their suffering. It doesn't get rid of what they've lost. A number of people that are plaintiffs in this litigation have died waiting for settlements, waiting for a trial date, perhaps.

Carey Gillam (28:45):

There are about 100,000 people now in the US who have claims against Monsanto Bayer. Bayer has now agreed to pay about $11 billion to try to settle the 100,000 or so claims. But when it all comes down to it and you take out the attorney's fees and you take out taxes and you pay back Medicare or other insurers, a lot of these people aren't going to see very much money at all, and that's been really frustrating and hard for them to understand. That's sort of a bittersweet aspect, or maybe not even bittersweet, maybe just a frustratingly sad part of the story, but it's the way mass tort works in this country. Really the only way that these companies get held accountable is through litigation like this.  I do think we need a better system where people really are compensated and are able to get real justice when they suffer like this.

Jeffrey Smith (29:42):

I so agree. I'll tell you one moving story with Lee. He hadn't been paid yet. Things were still under appeal. I was speaking with one of the attorneys from the trial at the heirloom expo in Santa Rosa, California, and I called up Lee's wife and I said, Why don't you guys come up? She texted me and said she's on her way. The lawyer and I were talking to the whole group and telling the background.  When it was like getting close to the end I said, They're just pulling in, just wait. So everyone just waited there. He walked in and got this huge standing ovation. He was crying. I was crying. It was just…..

Carey Gillam (30:25):

He's really become engaged as much as he can, I think, in trying to be a voice of caution and warning, and to try to move to get schools and school districts to stop spraying these chemicals. He's a walking example of the ravages that cancer can do to a person, because of course his cancer manifests on the skin, a type of non-Hodgkin lymphoma that shows up on his body. He has literally lesions, tumors all over--head, torso, arms, legs and feet. It's just a brutal type of cancer that causes him a lot of pain.

Jeffrey Smith (31:04):

He went to Hawaii to testify to try and change their laws, and I think he was successful.  I just feel like sometimes the whistleblowers in some cases--or in this case, the early plaintiffs--they're kind of designed to be the heroes for us all. I feel like your book brings it out that he’s on his own journey and he ends up being a hero for us all.

Carey Gillam (31:33):

He is. And a lot of people…my editor tells me at the very end of the book she cried, and I've heard that from other people too. It's just so moving, Lee's strength and courage, not only in battling Monsanto and going to court and going through the depositions. Oh my gosh, there's a scene, a chapter in the book, where he's being deposed just after getting chemotherapy, and he just is in so much pain--and the Monsanto lawyers are berating him for being late. It's just crazy. He's a very strong man. He was supposed to be dead by now. Actually, when I started writing the book I thought the last chapter would be his funeral, because all of the doctors predicted that he would die well before now. He's just out there deciding he's not going to. That's a pretty powerful message too, about the strength of character, heart and soul, I think.

Jeffrey Smith (32:33):

Marion Nestle just wrote about your book saying she couldn't put it down, and praised your excellent writing. I did mention that mine was a storybook, but you're a better story writer, ‘cause you're sitting down with the people, going into all the details. I think it's great. I want to recommend once again, The Monsanto Papers. You can go to the link to our seedsofdeception.com website and you can purchase the book—but for $4.95 more (basically the price of the additional shipping) we throw in three DVDs, all exposing Monsanto and sort of complimentary to the book. There's Your Milk on Drugs - Just Say NO!, which I created. I used a lot of the footage that was originally assembled for a Fox TV affiliate in Florida, that Monsanto's threatening letters stopped the four-part news series, and so they gave it to me, and you can see that when you get the bundle.

Jeffrey Smith (33:35):

There's the amazing The World According to Monsanto, by Marie-Monique Robin from France, award-winning and amazing, detailed. There's also Scientists Under Attack, which gives some examples of how Monsanto attacks scientists to discover problems that don't agree with the false narrative that their products are safe. Those I'm throwing them just to get you to get this book, okay? We're only charging the extra cost of shipping, the $4.95, plus the cost of the book and you get the three DVDs. We're doing our best to make your book a bestseller. Carey, is there anything you want to add before we go?

Carey Gillam (34:16):

No, you're quite the salesman. Thank you, Jeff. I appreciate it.

Jeffrey Smith (34:20):

Well, the thing is, Carey, I know that this is gifting material. It's the kind of thing you can share with people and they'll say, Oh my God, I had no idea. Or for people like me who are often trying to tell others our perspective and people kind of roll their eyes and say, I'm sure they're not that bad! Answer my question: Someone says to you (they don't know the details), Well, I’m sure Monsanto's not that bad. I'm sure they didn't know…they wouldn't sell a product that they knew was a problem. What's your response to that?

Carey Gillam (35:00):

What I say is, I've covered a lot of companies in my day. I've been a journalist for over 30 years, covering very big companies and very big industries. I've had a lot of companies try to harass me, tell me how to write stories, pressure me to write stories in a certain way. I have never experienced the type of conduct and harassment and seen the levels of the depths of deception ever other than the company of Monsanto. I think that they epitomize wrongdoing in the corporate world. It's probably a good thing they are no more. They've been acquired by Bayer and maybe Bayer will take a different tack. That remains to be seen, I think. Monsanto did some pretty bad stuff.

Jeffrey Smith (35:50):

I as an educator- advocate- activist combo--the “combo pack”--when I hear about things my immediate impression is everyone needs to know this, and that's what you've done. You've done it in a way that is not laborious, but actually very interesting, riveting and an exciting way. You can cry for joy at the end.

Carey Gillam (36:14):

Great, great. Well, thank you. Thanks for doing this.

Jeffrey Smith (36:17):

All right. Please go to seedsofdeception.com. Get the book or the book/DVD combo. And even if you don't have a DVD player, share the DVDs with someone you know. Hello, we've got to get this word out there.

Carey Gillam (36:30):

They’re good DVDs. I think I have all of them, don’t I? Yeah.

Jeffrey Smith (36:33):

I think you probably have more than that. All right, ‘bye everyone.

 Carey Gillam (36:37)

Bye-bye.

 

 

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